Stump Ed (S)

Several years ago a photographer took two of the top prizes in the PPANJ print comp with, what I consider to be, questionable photographs.  He was a heavy Painter user.  One image was a composite of head shots from a performance of (I think) "A Christmas Carol".  The entire image was converted to appear as an oil painting.  The other, was a Jackson Pollack type image, done completely in Painter.  There was no underlying photograph used. 

I think that the first is questionable, but the second was an outright fraud!

The point were the transition from "photograph" to "electronic painting" can be argued.  If I was running a competition, my criteria would be awfully subjective, but it has to "look like" a photograph.

Ed

Well, Cindy, I hope you don't mind; but I am going to try to redirect this thread to stumping Ed again.  I love this topic, and have more to say, but I think it is getting off track for where it is, and we got Ed's response anyway, right?

So Ed,

When I started studying photography not too long ago, I was very surprised at the color wheel that photographers are taught!  Did you know it is different than the color wheel that painters are taught?  Red, Green, and Blue are what photographers refer to as the primaries; but Red, Yellow, and Blue are the primaries on a painter's palette.  This was very confusing to me for a long time, and I had the hardest time getting my mind around how it was even possible.  I have since figured out the difference, and how/why the colors interrelate differently, but I was wondering if you were aware of this?  No, that's not it; I most certainly have more to ask .  OK, so the difference is whether the light is projected, or reflected.  I could go into a lot of detail here, but basically what happens is that the colors we see are the result of every color in the rainbow being absorbed by an object ("subtractive"), except the one that is reflected back to our eyes; which is the color we perceive.  Lights in a theater are projected, and so they will mix differently because they are "additive" instead of "subtractive", if that makes sense.  Are you ready for my question yet?

Based on these principles:  When working with photographic images, the light is additive to the film/sensor, so it stands to reason that RGB is the color wheel to use; but when the light is reflected off the paper, and you want to make color adjustments, do you use the RYB color wheel?  Why or why not?  Also, are we dealing with the same phenomenon with a computer screen?  Is the software actually using RYB to make adjustments to colors, and just called RGB in order to make it simpler for us?  Now, since none of this really matters to anyone, let me just state that it could be very useful if you ever decide to use pigments of some sort to color prints.  If you leave the original print color showing through a translucent layer of watercolor or colored pencil, the colors will mix differently than what you are used to (there, now this whole shenanigan might have some purpose to someone other than just my own curiosities).

Travis

YUP  !   Rob told the story and he is right on.  When making analog (old fashioned) color prints on an enlarger or performing color management tasks on your computer screen the Cyan/Yellow/Magenta channels do the trick.  When you are working on a properly calibrated screen you can see the results you are going to achieve right on that screen.  The Photoshop programs also show the RGB values if you prefer to use them for reference. 

From many years of custom printing on enlargers, I am used to the subtractive approach.  The old rule was to take the bad color (on a test print) and pit it in to the enlarger.  If a print was too red I would ADD red (equal amounts or yellow and magenta) to make the correction.  Unless you were hooked up to a video analyzer system, much of the precess of color management was based on experience and practice. especially in the area of multiple corrections.  The test print might have shown that an image was yellow/red as opposed to pure red.  In such a case  after the red correction was made and perhaps an  additional 5 units of yellow. 

Whether you think in terms of additive or the aforementioned subtractive method, a color wheel will not help very much with color balance issues- it is really a matter of recognizing color casts and either making visual or blind numerical corrections and making a few tests before getting it right.  For professional production in the old analog method a color analyzer will keep you on track with little or no re-makes. 

Nostalgia aside- When you see the image on your screen and and make a print- you need to recognize the corrections needed using you eye and your color perception.  Another tip is to firstly establish you brightness and contrast before adjusting your color levels. 

The color wheels might have some usefulness in selecting background colors and coordinating clothing colors in portrait sessions.  Here again, a few basics are probably more effective than using a color wheel.  When making portraits, for instance- if you consider the skin  tones are usually warm with some variations- pinks, browns, olive tones, yellow/golden tones and reddish tones- colors in the background will bring those tones out to the forefront of the motif of the portrait.  Cold colors tend to recede, thereby creating more depth, separation and dimensionality to the image.  There is nothing wrong, however, in using a warm background color such as earth tones and Autumn colors if those colors help make the statement you wish to communicate with your image.  Using warm tone backgrounds in portraiture will yield a more monochromatic rendition which can be nice as well, especially if earth tones are used in the clothing selection.  Siting theses examples shows that the color wheel is not as important as the photographer using his or her own color perception to create an image as they see fit.  There is also your own "tastes" in color nuances.  You may prefer slightly warmer or cooler times as a rule or wish to apply different casts to specific images.

I think that color wheels are good tools for learning basic color technology and color harmony but the information derived from a color wheel is not necessarily directly applicable to color management in analog or digital systems.   

Ed (S)