Hobbyist? Professional? Dividing line or Overlap?

So let me first start my saying this IMHO a professional is someone who makes more than 80 percent of their total income from their photography. Why 80 percent? Well that’s the figure that cuts out any other work you may do so you are solely earning your living from photography and in that it is your profession so making you a professional. OK am sure people will disagree and good post your disagreements.

Let me open up the categories further with other definitions that I use.

Amateur, someone who is taking their first steps in photography. This includes student photographers who are at a high level due to the formal schooling they are taking.

Hobbyist, someone who takes photos for fun, they enjoy it, maybe they have a point and shoot, maybe they have a top of the range DSLR.

Professional, someone who makes their sole income from photography. They use their chosen media to its highest output quality.

So let’s gets back onto Hobbyist vs. Professionals. We have heard said a professional should be one step ahead of the hobbyist. How many really good photographers do you know? Now how many really bad photographers do you know? I bet you have a higher number of bad photographers, we all would. Yes there are those photographers who set the world alight, some never take a commission and produce work for themselves which they show only to a few, then there are those that roll of your tongue, Bob Carlos Clarke, Monte Zucker, Ansel Adams, Alfred Eisenstaedt, Joe Cornish and many more their work is known around the world. I am not saying a hobbyist is always a lesser photographer however neither am I saying they are better than a professional. In all area you have good and bad photographers. Do this now though think of the worst hobbyist photographer you know someone whose work makes you want to scream, remember they have to be a hobbyist, now select the worst professional photographer you know and compare the work. If they are a pro you should find that even though their work is bad it should be better than the worst hobbyist photographer.

So where is the overlap? Well we have a hobbyist who is good with a camera they have a canon 400d and two kit lenses, so one day they decide they want to take photos. Out comes the camera and puff they are great at landscapes wow I mean their work is excellent, so their friends see it and say wow you should be a photographer can you do my wedding. They think wow great and shoot it, as they know the bride they can get what they want and produce it for them at next to nothing as they are printing the images of for pennies down at ASDA. Fast forward 6 months this photographer having realised the money to be made thinks I want the security of my job but I want to earn some of this wedding money. So they have a website, they get some bookings as they are only charging £200 for all day with an album from whsmiths. Wow thinks the bride I got a deal. Turn up at the church ready to go and they meet the Mother in Law from hell she makes Hitler look safe! She wants this photo, that photo the other photo she needs this producing that producing and the other, and in the middle of her death destroying salvo bang the camera goes down. There the sad photographer stands with no camera, an angry Mother in Law and no back up plan. The bride of course is fuming mad! But wait the photographer has no professional indemnity insurance and their was no contract so like dirt in the air he stops answering phone calls closes his website and decides opps shouldn’t have done that. You may laugh I know of this happening, I have even had a phone call on the wedding day asking if I could come and do a wedding as the photographer, a hobbyist, had turned up and they had to send him away as he had a point and shoot digital camera.

Ok before anyone starts yes you can take great photos on a point and shoot but to cover a whole wedding without changing the lens and being restricted to you depth of field and focal length!! So these hobbyists who say that the professional photographer has to stay one step ahead let me retort with this. When you pay tax and national insurance, kit insurance, cover the cost of your camera and lenses, have professional indemnity and public liability insurance, cover wages and business taxes. Then charge less and say oh it was my work that got it remember the reason a photographer charges x amount is because that is what it takes to pay for this and pay their wage. I have heard people say how anyone can charge £1000 to take some photos at a wedding with a digital camera! Well this is why. Say out of that £1000 that photographer is making £100, that’s £100 for that whole day, still sound great? Now say that out of 30 days they have 6 weddings, wow now that photographer who charges soooooooooo much is only actually making £600 a month does that cover your mortgage? Now to make matter worse in walks the hobbyist and his friends and charge £500 a wedding, because they aren’t paying half the cost, out of that they make £300 and think wow we did well. Yep and you got that booking because you undercut the professional who has to charge x amount to survive. This is where the overlap fails, if you want to be a professional and earn a living then you have my full support, but if you want to play about with someone else’s train set well then its just like Goldie Locks and the three bears. What happens when it goes wrong and you break a camera, what happens when you eat up all the work and the bears can’t work? What happens after you have slept in the beds and get bored after 6 months and decide you don’t like it after all as all these wedding are hard work.

It’s not about staying one step ahead of the hobbyist it about making the customer aware you get what you pay for. So where do you place yourself are you Goldie Locks or the Three Bears?

Cheers and Beers

Stew

One thing strikes me: in our language we know both amateurs and hobbyists. The amateur is surprisingly the advanced hobbyist!

Steward, I fully agree with you, I think almost anyone does, bur there will always be people who undercut even a minimal price as being a professional photographer provides them with the status connected with beautiful women, palm trees, white sandy beaches etc.
As long as there are brides who don't want to pay the full price they will hire those amateurs and regret it later.

To show you how ignorant brides can be: about two years ago I had a bride in tears coming to my studio: the whole of the images were a lot worse than expected. Wickedly I asked who made the images and she answered a friend of hers did......with his mobile phone!!!!!! "He always used to make such nice snaps with his phone and now....snif."
I asked for the cd with the images, "photoshop-ed" some images and quoted a price that was way above my standard price... and she accepted if I only could restore the images to decent 5x7 's.
It was the wedding that brought me most money two years ago.

Finally, .......then there are those that roll of your tongue, Bob Carlos Clarke, Monte Zucker, Ansel Adams, Alfred Eisenstaedt, Joe Cornish.... didnot you forget to mention a Dutch photographer with the initials LK?

Leen

Hi guys!  You and Goldie Locks seem be be having issues.  I've got to tell you that hanging out with Lil' Red Ridding hood is a lot more fun. 

Seriously though, I think what you really need is subclassifications of Professional Photographers.  There will always be Brides who will economize on the future because that is just the way that they are.  These type people will be with us forever and have been as well (remember the story about the grasshopper and his fiddle?)

There will also be Brides who simply cannot afford to pay a Pro.  The few weddings I have shot (4) were because of this and I took no money for my efforts and paid to have the photos developed as a gift.

It is the third example that I believe would be helped by a more precise definition of Professional Photographer which is the Bride who is able to afford but unaware of why she needs the services of a 'Guildsman' -or whatever.

So, you Pros get to work and agree upon some terms and then get the word out.

mike

Remember this post isnt about upseting anyone its about making people think and talk, is my post my true beliefs or am I playing devils advercate? Travis you say your sick of the soccer mom with her camera taking $200 weddings, well why maybe she is starting out as you said you are? This artical is food for thought at all stages in our love of photography we will be one step behind everyone else, how do you get that step up? Easy start doing what it takes.

The $200 Soccer mom goes on to be the part-time weekend warrior with their camera and a little bit of knowledge, they dont like the soccer mom (I hate the word soccer, we ruled the earth its Football!!) as she takes the $200 wedding wen they know they could have got $500 for it, now then the weekend warrior goes on to be the part-time photographer they work hard when they can and start to do more work, they now start to hate the weekend warrior, forget soccer mon her weddings are no longer if this persons league, so know the $500 wedding warrior wedding is sticking in the part time photographers throat as they could have got $1400 for it. So from the part-time we go to the full-time photographer, this is their profession so we can call them a professional, likewise anyone who works as a teacher is a professional teacher, if I stood their and made up a few lessons I wouldnt dare call myself a professional teacher id just be trying it out, so anyway the full time photographer gets fed up with the part-time photographer and the weekend warrior, soccer mon is still below so we can do forget about her and let her pick up her kids from soccer practise. The full-time photographer is now having to charge a minimum of $1400 just to clear costs, no cant undercut the part-time person and wouldnt be able to take the weekend-warrior money levels. So you have a photographer charging $3000 for a wedding, one charging $1400, one charging $500 and one charging $200. Now then maybe i wasnt fair at the start, everyone so far has got caught up on I'm this I'm that.... WRONG. What is your work? That is the true sign of professional photographer, ask any full-time photographer what they think of their work as a fellow photographer and they will say yeah its good, room for improvement. Now ask them as a customer and they will say it brilliant and the best going, why, because they believe in their work and they believe in the valuse of their work.

You most have faith in your work to be able to go that step to a full time photographer as its only then will you start to charge what you know its worth. Travis take for example some of those stunning landscapes you have posted on here, they are great and could hang in everyones home but until you say yes my work is worth that you cant take that step forward, releasing a safety net is a hard thing and its not something to do lightly but please to everyone who wants to be a full-time photographer dont what ever you do think that safe is alwasy best. I have seen photographers who could blow you away with their work. i mean life changing stuff, but they didnt want to step outside of their own little box, their work did but their faith didnt. If you want to be a professional photographer then believe that you are a professional photographer, that is the simple answer, faith in you, your work and if it all goes belly up then you know you tried but it is better to have tried than be the person who sits there asking why did I never go for it?

Food for thought or fuel for the fire you decide.

Cheers and Beers

Stew

Hi Travis, if I may intrude (some more ), I visit a few other forums as well and from what I can tell The People who rag on the people trying to break into the business the most are folks who either have just had a cancellation because somebody else did it cheaper, is really having trouble making ends meet and the competition is getting to them, or they have just spent 4 hours trying to salvage a wedding shoot that some amature totally botched and skipped with the money.

The vast majority of Pros that I have met are class people and don't insult anyone who gives an honest effort and has a willingness to learn!

"illegitimus non carborundum"  Keep plugging Bubba!

mike

P.S.  Stewart, maybe you can answer this.  Why would a country that has Rugby even bother with a game that won't let you use half of your talents?   

Stew,

By your definition, Tiger Woods isn't a professional golfer because he makes more in endorsements than prize money.

If you look it up in the dictionary, it doesn't say anything about how much of your money comes from you profession, but it does talk about maintaining ethic and standards.  The only people that I have ever heard talk about making more than XXX% of your income to be considered a professional are those who are making their living at something and trying to demean those who have other income.  (I am NOT accusing you of this!)  By that logic, if I were married to a doctor and didn't have another job, I could shoot five $300 weddings each year and claim to be a pro, but if I have a teaching job where I make $40K a year, have to bring in $160K from photography . . . is that net or gross . . .

The dictionary definition is really a much better and more useful one . . . it isn't about the money . . . it's about the attitude . . .

Ed

See the problem with this whole thread is that we are all stereotyping (not that I don't agree with about everything a lot of you have said), but where do people like me fit in?  And why do all the groups have to hate each other?
I consider myself a professional photographer.  I make money at what I do.  No, I don't make all my money with photography, yet.  I am at that jumping off point where I need to quit my day job to handle all the weddings, but I am so scared to gamble like that.  So, I work 80 hours a week.
I love photography, but I don't eat, drink, and sleep it (okay sometimes I have to skip eating, drinking and sleeping to get all my photos edited and prints to the lab, etc...).  I do study as hard as I can and as often as I can.  I want to learn to be better, because I know I haven't nearly reached my potential yet.
So where do I fit in?  Since I don't really think I belong in any of the groups listed do they all hate me?  I so hate being hated 

Suzie, good point.

We all have people we look up to, and people that look up to us. You may be right that a "Professional" photographer may not be based on income, but passion. You are about to take the step into "full time" that I will never take and I admire you for that. I think all the posters on this board are passionate about photography or they wouldn't seek others like them all over the world just to discuss it. You guys who are considered pro, you make your living taking photos of people. When you get in your car to drive home do you have a camera close? If so photography is still your hobby.