I need help with indoor lighting

Hey folks,

I'm really having a hard time with the indoor lighting. Currently, I use the hot Tungsten Lighting at the College.
I'm enjoying working with models as I feel free, as though I'm in my own world in Nature Photography.

Anyhow, I'm really trying to get the concept of placement of lights so that i have no cross, lighting as the pic below shows.
Plus, is there somekind of rule such as the 11 or 1 o'clock rule as for catch lights in the eyes.?

To do so, what is the rule for the height of the light etc. Yes, we were shown the 45 45 placement plus the fill light at about camera right or left depending on the situation. It seems harder then what it really is.

I do like to work outside the box, "Rules" maybe it's the reason for screwing up.

My approach to photography is ART, I'm always trying to go out of the parameter as this is what I do in nature. When working with human subjects such as models, nature comes to mind. Yes, we can kid around with that comment, but, I am serious with what I do. And sometimes I dig to deep and make things look harder then they really are.

I know Ed S. had a serious thread on the subject, I wish I could meet you folk and see what you do physicaly. I am very weak when it comes to "Theory" however, my strength is hands on doing the task physicaly then i'm able to comprehend the theory.
Pictures of setup etc. thanks for your time and your response in advance.

Cheers

Mike

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I think Leen Koper and Ed Shapiro can tell you more precisely what is wrong.

I will give a try however. You make it very difficult for yourself if you do a full body shot. 90 procent of my pictures is a headshot or till the hips of the model. And this way you can see more of the expression in the face of the model.
Customers seldom choose the full body shots

I never let a model wear sunglasses. Maybe in the hair. I just want to have a good contact with a model and I can't have that if she is wearing sunglasses. An other point is that you can more difficult see if the light is set up properly.

From point of lightning I can see that it is rather hard. I use a big octagonal softbox (120 cm) but I do not know if this is possible when using those tungsten lights. I love this kind of lightning but this personal.

If you had let the two models stand up, then the shadows would be less bothering. Now you see the shadows of the legs and of the the bench. This is more in terms of composition.

I hope this helps you with your next posts.



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Theo Bakker

I don’t like making mountains out of molehills or try to make out that the technological or artistic aspects of photographic lighting to be rocket science.  When it comes to fine lighting, however, things can be rather complex and certainly can not be learned overnight.  In fact, there is no guarantee that even a rocket scientist can ever learn the artistic part- that requires a talent for “seeing light” which is the essence of fine portraiture and great commercial photography.  The scientific part can be learned much the same as physics and geometry.  There are theories regarding of angle of incidence, reflectivity, illumination and light output that can all be memorized and put down on paper as diagrams, charts text and instructions, however all of this is just starting points as to light placement and equipment usage but all of this is almost useless as to the aesthetic of lighting.  Anyone can produce an image on film or a digital card providing there is enough light to do so. However to create art with light is entirely another matter.    I would LOVE to create a really comprehensive “course” in lighting on this forum, if I can find enough time to create sufficient instructional images to do the job properly.  Just showing fully finished portraits or commercial images is not really enough to teach lighting.  Lightings have to be built up by adding and subtracting light as required to help in creating an artistic interpretation of any subject. 

One principle that I consider axiomatic is that just publishing lighting diagrams is next to useless without showing or explaining all the nuances that need to be applied once the light stands are on the floor and the units are plugged in to a power source.  Think of lighting diagrams as road maps- they are guides.  If you drive your car while looking at a road map, you’re gonna crash into something or run off the road- you need to keep your eyes on the road and drive ahead.  In photography, you have to keep your eyes on the subject and observe what happens when you make both drastic and subtle changes to the position of the lights.  Vertical and lateral movements of the lighting units in relation to the subject position have so many effects and implication.  One can change the shape of a face, make dramatic statements and create a multitude of dramatic moods with finite adjustments of the lights. 

Basically, the same principles apply to indoor, outdoor and existing light scenarios same as the do in totally controlled studio lighting.  It is a matter of creating light or finding it but again, the theory and practice is exactly the same. 

I will start writing about the basics as soon as I confer with Ed F. and Ryan as to where to place them.  Oh- If you are just beginning to learn about fine lighting methods- forget about “jumping out of the box” because you ain’t in the box yet.  Like music, painting and many other visual or performing arts it is best to have a grasp of the BASICS.  In art, rules are made to be broken but are impossible to break the rules with any kind of savvy if you don’t fully understand them in the first place.  Not taking this approach is tantamount to a dog chasing his own tail.  He will probably never catch it and if he does and bites it, a great deal of pain and disappointment will surely result. 

What do y’all think? 

Ed Shapiro

   
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Ed Shapiro
The Hintonburg Studio
Suite 201  78 Hinton Avenue North
Ottawa, Ontario CANADA  K1Y 0Z8
613-792-4837    Email:  edshapiro@rogers.com

Hi Ed

I hear you about grasping the basics, work with it till you know and see it.
Like music, I had to learn the rudements of music before going on into jazz and performing. Cool.

same with art had to start somewhere, basics.

Photography, back to basics, lighting, sure thing, I'll stop fooling around.


Theo, no, softboxes will burn with the use of tungsten. I have four lights, Key/main, Fill, a small background light and a hair light. Bounce cards, reflector, a diffusing panel, gels which melt if one holds it to the light too long, as some have done.

44 and in College, am I nuts. LOL
I know this is a good thing for me, I do, however, miss my wildlife.

Mike
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Mike, you are nuts. I love to confirm it. But aren't we all?

There is a lot of mystery about photographic lighting.Yesterday I discussed this with a pupil of mine who is starting to understand it: there is no problem that is different from the lighting outdoors. It just takes a few years to understand this basic principle. After this "incubation time" it is that simple, you cannot understand what was so difficult. That is why I hardly stage any seminars any more. I don't know what to tell the people who spend their hard earned money te listen to me.

My advice: keep on trying, follow the rules, try to forget "jumping out of the box" (you cannot!) and it will come of its own accord.

(I think, from reading his text, Ed Shapiro has about the same problem as I do)
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Quote
Anyhow, I'm really trying to get the concept of placement of lights so that i have no cross, lighting as the pic below shows.

In your example above, it doesn't really bother me too much. The look is like they are sitting at a bus station or mall with light bouncing off of different buildings lighting, structure or shiny objects - at different angles, maybe a little direct sun light hitting them - that type of thing. If as it appears, you are going after a commercial fashion type feel with this shot and have a specific look of what I have described in mind, conventional portrait lighting is not going to necessarily provide you with the look you are after.

Back to your question about how you stop the cross lighting and resulting cross shadows - - - you keep all light coming from one side or direction related to your subject. and your fill light is directly above and/or behind the camera and is as large a source as possible. I remember years ago going to a wedding with a photographer who had a set "SAFE" method of placing 2  studio strobes equadistant from the subject (about 10 to 12 feet away) - with one strobe on each side of the camera at around 45 degrees. One strobe was powered down by one stop to act as a fill light. Everything was lit well, but the look was harsh (because of the distance creating a small source of light, and the 30 inch silver umbrellas) - plus there were the cross shadows.

Even in Commercial model photography you will generally see one large main light source to one side, above the camera, or wrapped around the lens (if a large ring light or other custom contraption) - and any other flash units you see will be accent lights for backgrounds. If there are suplimental lights hitting the subject, they will be controlled and coming from an obtuse angle (90 degrees or more) and are either accenting or providing side fill which do not cast objectionable or overly visible shadows on the subject or the viewable setting - if placed properly and powered properly. One reason you can use a reflector to the side of the subject (obtuse angle) when shooting closeup, is because the angles of the reflected light and resulting shadows do not conflict with the main light. Move the reflector to the front of the subject and you will have problem shadows to deal with (unless you know from experience how to control them - or want them for effect).

For most normally shooting conditions, keep lighting simple. From the perspective of the how the subject is being lit, think of one source of main light just as with the sun outdoors - and a large soft fill light like the large sky outdoors or a large concrete building behind the camera that would kick light into the subject for an unnoticed but essential fill. As soon as you put an additional light in the mix, you are creating a second source if it is not controlled properly - - - which may be exactly what you are after, but in most likelihood not.     
« Last Edit: April 06, 2007, 06:43:49 AM by robertwatcher »
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Rob

A Creative Edge in Photography by Robert Watcher
www.robertwatcher.com

documentary wedding photographer : lifestyle portrait photography : professional photographer from ontario canada

These are the 4 most common methods I use for lighting full length subjects. They all show that I am using one source and direction of light - along with a broad shadowless fill light:




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Rob

A Creative Edge in Photography by Robert Watcher
www.robertwatcher.com

documentary wedding photographer : lifestyle portrait photography : professional photographer from ontario canada

Hi Robert,

Thanks for your detailed explaination.
Yes, the girls wanted the waiting at the BUS STOP, it's amazing how you nailed it. No, we were not after a commercial shot.

Thanks for the diagrams as well and your time and effort.
Cheers.

Mike
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Mike,

I admit that I may not be much help as I havn't worked in this environment in several years. 

As far as your crossed shadows go: I think that you need to look at more lighting contols.  These lights need to be contained so the they only light the portion of the image that you want them to light, while not spilling or casting shadows elsewhere.  This is job of gobo, flags or whatever else you may have at your disposal.  For example, you have a light to left of your subjects which while it provides some nice lighting on the face of the woman on that side also casts a shadow of her raised leg onto the floor.  Blocking this light from hitting her leg will prevent this shadow.

I hope that this helps.

Ed
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Ed Farmer
Mount Laurel, New Jersey

www.edfarmerphotography.com
www.photoartsforum.com

Really, my main was on (Our left) and my fill was at our right.  Reason for cross shadows.

The ratio was metered as 3:I have to keep in mind the basic rule of 45 to camera and almost at camera the fill light.
I tend to 45 the fill light as a habit. O.K. Ed S. I'll break that habit.

By having the fill light way back it becomes about 2.8 as the Key/main light is 5.6 for example.
Also, I used another light, same size as fill light to wash the background and used a smaller light to wash the other side of the background.

The lights are a pain in the posterior, the fill light will stay on for about 30 seconds and goes off for about a min. and repeats. "Photogenic"

For now, for basics, main 45 degrees of camera and fill near camera? is this a good start.?

Mike
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It is a good start, but try to use a reflection screen as an "extra light" to determine the contrasts. It is a kind of addition to your fill. The 45 degree angle of your main light can be determined by visually checking.
Seperately you have to determine the lighting of your background.

Leen
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Mike,

If your lights were at 45 degrees, what is creating this shadow?  It is from the raised foot of the girl in white.  It looks like it is way past 45 . . .

Ed
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Ed Farmer
Mount Laurel, New Jersey

www.edfarmerphotography.com
www.photoartsforum.com

Mr Farmer Wink
Main 45 and Fill 45, I mentioned it was a habit to put 45 for fill. I also mentioned that I promised Mr S. that I will break that habit next time I'm in the studio. LOL

I should have had the Fill at camera instead of 45. Just my mistake, no pun, Wink I'm not overly keen of a studio, but, it's a challenge, and I like challenges. All you guys will make me a better person for it.

Thanks for all the effort you guys are putting into this, very kind and much appreaciated. I will take all the advise and put it to use and share the next session which I have on Thursday Afternoon. A baby shoot, ah man, just kidding. It's a favour for friends who just had a baby.

Mike
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Mike,

I am really sorry!  I sound like an idiot in my last post . . . I meant to attach this copy of your image  Grin, the shadow that I am questioning is circled:
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Ed Farmer
Mount Laurel, New Jersey

www.edfarmerphotography.com
www.photoartsforum.com

I see,
Not only it was 45, I also remembered that I bounced the fill as well off the white wall just to the right of the image.
Does that help? confusing lighting, I know, I'm learning from my stupid mistakes, todays session was grounding more techniques, I'm starting to get it.

Thanks Ed.

Mike
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