PhotoShop vs Website displyLibrary Thread

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You can set a color profile in Windows, but I don't know off hand what programs use them.  If memory serves, Photoshop overrides the Windows setting.

I use sRGB as my default color space in PS so everything that gets saved, assuming I don't strip the ICC profile, is sRGB.  Brings up a thought though.  Are y'all "Saving for web"?  Maybe that's stripping the profile to try and make the file smaller.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 06:12:34 PM by Ryan Nutt »
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OK, good ideas.  I hope Marian doesn't mind me stepping in here and playing along with what was originally her thread.

I start with 16-bit images, use them for my editing, and convert to 8-bit before saving to JPEG.  I don't believe it's even possible to save a 16-bit file as a JPEG.

My Windows default color profile is the color profile made by my color management software (HueyPRO).

My Color Settings in Photoshop CS3 are:
Working Spaces
RGB:  sRGB IEC61966-2.1  (This is also the requested color space for my lab)
CMYK:  US Web Coated (SWOP) v2
Gray:  Dot Gain 20%
Spot:  Dot Gain 20%
Color Management Policies
RGB:  Convert to Working RGB (This is what I changed earlier that I thought would make a difference)
CMYK:  Preserve Embedded Profiles
Gray:  Preserve Embedded Profiles


I do not use the Save For Web as it strips the EXIF data from my images.

Whenever I save an image (whether as JPEG or PSD) I have checked the box next to ICC Profile: sRGB IEC61966-2.1

Edit:  Let me add that my D80 is set to capture in "Ia" color Mode [ a(sRGB) ]

Maybe this helps?

Travis
« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 10:50:31 PM by Travis Minnig »
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Also, just to make things even more complicated; here is another comparison of images that I noticed having problems while I was working on a workshop tonight.  The one on the left was the original, and as I was making screen shots, I noticed that they were losing contrast and saturation.  I placed a screen shot image next to the original one in photoshop and did another screen shot to show you.  Realize that now what you see is this:  the one on the right is a screen shot of a screen shot (twice the loss) and then has been posted here, the one on the left is a screen shot of the Photoshop images and then has been posted here.  I just thought it was interesting that I was seeing a lack of contrast and saturation with the screen shots, and an increase with the forum postings so I thought I'd throw that out here and see if it offers any other ideas as to what is happening.

Travis
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You are already sRGB in your working space, so, there is no need to convert to profile RGB, if you do so, that is the result of uploading to web.

In short, is there a confusion going from sRGB when working in photoshop and perhaps accidently converting to RGB for web?
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So your last set was never opened outside of PS?  I've always assumed the cause had to do with web browsers not correctly using profiles. 

You're using Windows, correct?  If you go to Display under the Control panel, over to Settings tab, and then click advanced one of the tabs is Color.  Do you have an ICC profile there that may be interfering?  I've got sRGB set in Photoshop but my Huey put its color space setting in for the monitor in the Windows settings.  Maybe that's used during copy and paste. 

I'm just throwing out ideas.  Don't know if it would really have any effect. 
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OK, good ideas.  I hope Marian doesn't mind me stepping in here and playing along with what was originally her thread.

This has turned into a very interesting thread, with great conversation and ideas, so how could I mind?  Smiley
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Comments and Harsh Critiques gladly accepted. My photos are ok to edit.

My photos and art: http://wildmaven.org

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...and perhaps accidently converting to RGB for web?

I'm not sure, how would I tell?  I'm certainly not doing anything intentionally to make this additional conversion.

I am using Windows; I do have my Huey profile set as the default monitor profile.  Could this be the problem?  How else would you work?  I thought that was how I was supposed to use my monitor calibration software.

Keep the ideas coming, I would love to be able to figure this out.  As I said earlier, even though my system is working for my prints and customers; I learn the most about how to improve my work by the critiques I get right here on this forum.  So I would really like for you to be able to see exactly what I do when I post it and ask for your comments.  I am sure many other people here are the same way.

I am honestly at a total loss, so I am all ears to see what other ideas come from this conversation.  Thanks for everyone's willingness to help the rest of us out.

Travis
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OK, so I think I figured something out.  Marian, you should try this too and see if it helps.  Go to View > Proof Setup > Monitor Profile, then Go to View (again) > Proof Colors.  This will set your Photoshop to show you your images the same way as your monitor profile shows the image in every other software you will view them in.  This has worked for me.  Let me show you:

Original that is too dark and contrasty (Photoshop on the left, Explorer on the right)

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And this is the edited one the way I want it to print

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« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 12:10:19 AM by Travis Minnig »
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This seems to have worked for me at least, however I can't get the Proof Colors to stay checked; anyone with ideas on that.  I really don't want to have to check that every time I open a file so I know I am viewing it the same as it will be output.

Thanks for the help everyone,

Travis
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This will set your Photoshop to show you your images the same way as your monitor profile shows the image in every other software you will view them in.
Will this affect how the image is printed?  It seems like telling PS to do something that changes the monitor colors doesn't seem like a good idea on a calibrated monitor.  Maybe PS is smart enough to work around that though.
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This will set your Photoshop to show you your images the same way as your monitor profile shows the image in every other software you will view them in.
Will this affect how the image is printed?  It seems like telling PS to do something that changes the monitor colors doesn't seem like a good idea on a calibrated monitor.  Maybe PS is smart enough to work around that though.

It seems to be a "view only" type of settting. Smiley I tried it on one computer, but I'll have to try it on the computer I originally had the problem with.
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Comments and Harsh Critiques gladly accepted. My photos are ok to edit.

My photos and art: http://wildmaven.org

I guess that's my question though.  If it's changing the way you view your image, why wouldn't it be affecting the way it's printed?  Maybe it's something we should be turning on when we're working on images for online viewing and off when we're working on image for print.  Just a random speculation since I'm not totally sure what's going on with color management.  I bought a little Huey a year or so ago, plugged it in, calibrated my monitor, and it matched test prints I did so I'm a little apprehensive about messing with the Photoshop color settings. 
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Maybe it's something we should be turning on when we're working on images for online viewing and off when we're working on image for print.

That's exactly it. Smiley
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Comments and Harsh Critiques gladly accepted. My photos are ok to edit.

My photos and art: http://wildmaven.org

OK, I've been doing a little light reading Smiley.  Here is a link to a website that has some good advice on how to manage a color workflow, as well as some links to check and make sure you are getting the most out of your monitor and calibration hardware.  Dry Creek Photo

As near as I can tell, the only thing you can really do is to get a printer profile from your lab, or from your own printer if you print your own; and then use the soft proofing features in Photoshop to finalize your jpeg's before sending them off to be printed.  AdobeRGB sounds like it may be the 'best' color space to use when editing your .psd files because it has a larger gamut than the sRGB space does and therefore will allow you more possible colors and more saturation when doing your editing.  One thing to realize (if I understand this correctly) is that you are viewing and editing the file in a color space, but you are not embedding a color profile to the image.  That is typically done in your camera and will remain with the file always.  You don't want to overwrite that.  What you do want to do is be able to view the file within the gamut of whatever space will be used to represent it when you either print it or put it on the web.

So, as you are assuming, you are partially correct.  If you are going to post on the web, you should view your proof with your monitor color profile; for printing you will want to proof the image with your printer profile.  Many people will not see a large difference between these different profiles because of the translation of their original profiles in their original image files; and some may see a lot more difference.  This could change from image to image as well, depending on what colors and color values will fall within any given color space.  So, you may not need to proof your images for printing, I think I do for whatever reason.  Marian, you may just want to add a proof to your web saving workflow so that you know the image looks right when posted on the internet.  This is necessary for web design also, I suppose.  If you take the time to go through the aforementioned website, you will find this, but here is a suggested workflow to manage the color in your images from opening to editing to printing: Example Workflow.

I have occasional issues with my prints (which is why I have a Huey now instead of my Spyder), so I am working with my lab to get a profile for their printer that I can use to soft proof in Photoshop before I send them my files.  If anyone is interested, I am in the process of making some simple actions that can be used for: initializing a file for editing; saving as a high resolution jpeg; and saving for web.  I already have them and have been using them in my editing workflow for some time, but I am going to add the necessary steps for some better color management now as well.  That way all the necessary steps are automated.  Anyway, speak up if you'd like to take a look at them when I have them working good (at least for me) and I'll be happy to share them.

I'm not sure I've got this figured out yet, but I think I'm heading in the right direction.  Hopefully this can help someone else as well.

Travis
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I just wanted to post an update.  I have been continually reading and researching color management ever since this discussion started. Apparently there is a LOT to learn about it.  Some information that I have gathered may be of interest to all of you, so I wanted to share it before I forget it myself.

The first thing I had to realize, and that I found a lot of misleading information about; was that very few Windows program are color managed.  Which means that they don't recognize or use a color profile or work in a color space that we would use as part of our color-managed workflow.  sRGB is a color space that seems to be quite broad in its use, but Internet Explorer and most other common Windows apps DO NOT use it.  They run off Monitor RGB, which can be close to sRGB, but it really just depends on where the monitor's original color space is.  In my instance (and I suspect in Marian's), sRGB and my Monitor RGB are quite different.  Therefore, in order for us to predict what we will see when we open an image in any Windows application, we should be soft-proofing those images in Monitor RGB.  This would, of course, pertain to any images posted on the web.  We would still benefit by leaving the sRGB profile embedded in the file, because Macs have a largely color managed system, so anyone viewing them that way would see the image with the sRGB profile applied.  The problem, of course, is that if you make major changes to your image so it looks good with MonitorRGB soft-proofing, it may look way off when viewed with color-managed software.  So there may need to be decisions made based on your good judgement and who you plan on showing your images to.

Photoshop is a color-managed software.  Therefore, it will show you your images as they need to be for the printer.  Again, Adobe RGB has a wider gamut, meaning it can calculate and utilize more colors and variations.  Therefore, AdobeRGB is often the recommended space to use as a Working Space while you are editing your images.  sRGB is very universal, and seems to be almost standard for many inkjet printers.  The printers have their own profiles, but they make the conversion for you.  You just need to have a good color space that has a gamut within the ability of the printer profiles.  Then, the printer software (in theory) can translate the sRGB profile to whatever profile it actually uses to print the image.

So, my own issue with my posted images, is that I need to soft-proof to my MonitorRGB before posting to the web in order to make sure it renders the same as what I see.  At the very least, I need to know what things are going to be different when I post it to the internet.  As for my printing, well... all I can say is this, "DO NOT BE CHEAP ON MONITOR CALIBRATION SYSTEMS!!!"  Do I need to repeat that?  I have been cheap twice now, in total I have spent $250 on two different monitor calibration systems.  Neither of which will do what I need them to do.  I am now looking at spending another $250-$300 for a good system that will produce acceptable results.  It will cost me twice as much now, because I tried to scrimp in the beginning.  Live and learn for me; but you should all learn from my mistake (if you don't already have a system working for you).  There are a lot of things you can probably get away with by not buying top of the line, but monitor calibration is not one of them.  At least not if you want to know, without a doubt, what your prints from the lab will look like.

Also, just so I'm not harping on these systems, they may work great for you depending on your lab.  If your lab is doing a final retouch on your images before printing, then you are good to go.  If they are printing straight from your files, beware.

Here is another link for a whole bunch of information on color managed workflow: DPreview Color Management Article

Travis
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