Riddle me this.

The model I set everything up for flaked, so me and Pat did some sync speed tests
(pat is my non-speaking very patient model)

I've included the settings, what am I taking a photo of, my mirror?
photos are portrait with the camera's top to the left.

135.0mm -- f/11.0 -- (1/250)sec -- ISO640
look at the left of the frame


faster shutter moved the line
155.0mm -- f/11.0 -- (1/320)sec -- ISO640


even faster shutter
155.0mm -- f/11.0 -- (1/400)sec -- ISO640



the lights were set on radio slaves
main camera right 3' above 6 feet from the model through an umberella
fill camera left even with and 4 feet from the model through an umbrella
hair snooted shooting from behind and above camera right.
not saying the setup is good, just what I was using.

here is one done "right"
155.0mm -- f/11.0 -- (1/125)sec -- ISO100


Pat is a great help... [grin]
 Camera
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 04:53:01 AM by BobEdens »
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"I get up every morning determined to both change the world and have one heck of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning my day difficult. "- EB White

Chattanooga Photographer www.BobEdens.com

It's the shutter.  The way I understand it, and I'm sure someone here (Ed S, cough) knows the technical end better, is that the max sync speed is the fastest shutter speed where the shutter is actually open the whole way.  Otherwise you'll catch part of the shutter without light like you see in your pictures.
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OK, so I'm a little slow...  Are you teaching something, or asking for help?  Most (if not all) of today's DSLR's have a 'focal plane shutter'.  There are two curtains that travel in front of the film/sensor, one right behind the other.  They form a narrom slit of light that passes to the sensor from side to side, exposing the image from one side to the other.  The entire image is actually not exposed at the exact same time at fast shutter speeds.  The faster the shutter speed, the closer the curtains follow each other, therefore allowing less light onto any one area of the film plane at one time.  If I understand it correctly, the shutters actually move at a maximum rate, which is usually way slower than the shutter speed would infer.  If your camera sync's at 1/125 second, that is the fastest rate at which the curtains actually move.  Once you pass that speed, it is the distance between them that causes less light to reach the image sensor (effectively increasing the shutter speed).  Because of this, you will have a shadow from the second curtain being in the way of the light when the flash goes off once you pass the sync speed.  Much like an in-camera gobo that you probably didn't really want.  The faster your shutter, the more of the curtain is in the way to mess up your shot.  Hence the moving vertical shadow in your shot.  The light from most strobes is actually much faster than the shutter, so it's really only the camera's shutter type that restricts it.  Leaf shutters could sync at any speed because they actually formed an opening big enough to expose the entire film plane instantly at the shutter speed you set.  I believe that if you set your shutter fast enough with a strobe, you will actually get a shadow from both the first and second shutter, leaving just a thin strip of exposed image.  Might be fun to try while you are goofing around.

Anyway, if you were asking why, that's it.  If you were trying to teach something, hopefully I added a little to it.

Travis
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OK travis, if what you say is true, the black line I photographed was traveling from the top of the camera to the bottom. (holding it for potraits) the shutter button was above the lens.

I don't know do DSLRs even have shutters? why? cant the cpu tell the sensor how long to accept data?
 
Which leads back to my original question, what did I take a photo of?
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"I get up every morning determined to both change the world and have one heck of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning my day difficult. "- EB White

Chattanooga Photographer www.BobEdens.com

Quote
I don't know do DSLRs even have shutters? why? cant the cpu tell the sensor how long to accept data?

They do.  I'm not sure of the answer to your question but my guess would be that the sensor cannot turn on and off as fast as the shutter speeds as the shutter moving across it. 
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Yes, your DSLR has a shutter and that is what you are taking a picture of. 

They can't switch the sensor on and off fast enough to simulate a shutter.  Well . . . that's not exactly true.  When the sensor is turned on or off, there is a period of warm up or cool down when the switch is thrown.  During this period a large amount of noise is generated which would make the image unusable.

Travis' explaination of shutter function and sync speed is correct.  The first focal plane shutters traveled horizontally, across the long length of the 35mm frame.  The switch to vertical focal plane shutters is one of the things that allowed faster sync speeds.  This is because the shutter only has to open along the shorter length of the frame.

Ed
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Ed Farmer
Mount Laurel, New Jersey

www.edfarmerphotography.com
www.photoartsforum.com

Now we just need to figure a way to "use" this to create something amazing... [grin]

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"I get up every morning determined to both change the world and have one heck of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning my day difficult. "- EB White

Chattanooga Photographer www.BobEdens.com

Don't you think that this is ALL pretty amazing?
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Ed Farmer
Mount Laurel, New Jersey

www.edfarmerphotography.com
www.photoartsforum.com

You're right, Ed. It is amazing the fact that we can capture light and release it later. Then we can show copies of the captured light and discuss the results of this feat with people hundreds of miles away without speaking a single word. [grin]

My choice of words was flawed.

How can we use faster shutter speeds in the studio to create unique or artsy effects.

OK I confess, *stands up* My name is Bob Edens, and I'm a geek.

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"I get up every morning determined to both change the world and have one heck of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning my day difficult. "- EB White

Chattanooga Photographer www.BobEdens.com

All right, so I don't know if you can actually get results you will like, but here is something you can do with this little "problem" and see if you can come up with something you like:

During an outdoor session with a family last year, I had some very strange image flaws that took me some time to understand and explain.  I now believe that my sync speed was to blame.  What I had was half of an image that was sharp (the side with the flashes), and the other half was blurry (the shadow side).  There seemed to be a very unique line between what was sharp, and what wasn't.  Also, the blur really seemed to me to be in a specific direction (motion blur).  When I set up, I used the existing light as a fill, and the flash as a main, therefore balancing the ambient and already bright conditions.  OK, so I wanted my bg blurry, so I opened up my aperture and increased my shutter speed (faster than the camera's sync speed  Cry ).  So my suggestion is that it might be possible to get some cool effects by shooting in ambient light that is sufficient (or very nearly so) to create an acceptable exposure, but then apply your flash to a moving object and try to catch something of interest in the band of the image that is sharp from the strobe.  This may sound confusing, sorry if I'm not explaining myself well.  Anyway, you could make sure that the bg is already blurred by the wide aperture, and that the subject will be in focus, and you just might turn out something interesting.  I have never tried myself, but what the heck?  If you're asking what's possible, maybe this will make some little spark that we can have some fun with...

Travis
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 01:41:39 AM by Travis Minnig »
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That's a good idea Travis. I think the best way to do the "moving" thing is with slow sync speed which is the same but controlled. the shutter opens first and the flash fires just before it closes freezing whatever. Great for bicycles. (your panning ability will matter a lot) [grin]

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"I get up every morning determined to both change the world and have one heck of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning my day difficult. "- EB White

Chattanooga Photographer www.BobEdens.com

Hi Gang!

ARE WE NOT MAKING A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLE HILL HERE Grin

Focal  plane shutters have been around for a long time with the same flash synch problems.  The 4X5 Speed Graphic cameras of the 1040 had focal plane shutters that achieved speeds of up to 1/1,000 sec. when used in natural light.  The flash synch speed , however, was limited to 1/25th sec.  Before the days of electronic flash, flash bulbs were used and there were FP lamps that had prolonged burn times to accommodate focal plane shutters and also yield more lumen/seconds adding up to more light.  Graphs were furnished with flash bulbs which illustrated the PEAK of the lamp and FP lamps showed quite a flat line at peak light output.  For between the lens shutter the were (M Synch) lamps for normal use- M meaning medium peak and there were FP (fast peak) lamps which were filled with gas rather than zirconium foil or wire for limited action stopping somewhat similar to electronic flash.  Unlike electronic flash, the shutter speed factored in to the flash exposure.

Electronic flash requires X- delay which means unlike their flash bulb ancestors, there is no delay and the shutter must be fully open when the flash fires.  Most leaf between the lens shutters can synch with electronic flash up to shutter setting up to 1/500 sec. but our old friends the FP shutters can not do that.  On many 35mm and 35mm digitals, there is an "X" mark, a lightning sign or a shutter speed marked in red which indicate the cameras maximum X delay setting for use with electronic flash.  Unless you want to photograph the back of you shutter curtains- DON"T GO BEYOND THAT SPEED!   As Ed mentioned there are newer shutter design that are allowing faster synch speeds- some up to 1/250 sec.   This is of great advantage when you are doing flash fill in daylight situations. 

Special effects- blurs-  streaks whatever-  You can use the "B" setting on your shutter and fire multiple pops, use a real stroboscopic flash, drag the shutter and move the camera or get one of theses newfangled cameras that have both front and back shutters?Huh?? to make wild effects.

If you are shooting portraits, weddings or press assignments- don't mess around and stay within the limitations of you synchronization system and you won't cut your pictures in half!    Camera   Ed Grin 

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Ed Shapiro
The Hintonburg Studio
Suite 201  78 Hinton Avenue North
Ottawa, Ontario CANADA  K1Y 0Z8
613-792-4837    Email:  edshapiro@rogers.com

SOME MORE DATA FOR YOU-

M, F, FP, and X sync
Cameras designed for use with flash bulbs generally had one or more of M (medium) sync, F (fast) sync, or FP (focal plane) sync, designed for use with corresponding bulb types. These sync modes close the contacts a few milliseconds before the shutter is open, to put the main pulse of light at the best time relative to the shutter opening. FP sync was designed for use with FP (flat-peak) flash bulbs which were designed for use with focal-plane shutters. Most standard flash bulbs used M sync.

The Nikon F offered FP, M, and ME bulb synchronizations, in addition to the X sync.

X sync is a mode designed for use with electronic flash. In this mode, the timing of the contacts coincides exactly with the full opening of the shutter, since xenon flashes respond almost instantly.

Due to their construction, focal plane shutters as used on most SLRs will only allow xenon flash units to be used at shutter speeds slow enough that the entire shutter is open at once, typically at shutter speeds of 1/60 or slower, but some modern cameras may have an X-sync speed as high as 1/500. Electronic shutters used in some digital cameras do not have this limitation and may allow a very high X-sync speed.

Today, certain modern xenon flash units have the ability to produce a longer-duration flash to permit X-synchronization at shorter shutter speeds. Instead of delivering one burst of light, the units deliver several smaller bursts a time interval as short at 1/125 of a second. This allows light to be delivered to the entire area of the film or image sensor even though the shutter is never fully open at any moment. The downside is that the flash is of less effective intensity since the individual bursts are lower powered than the normal capability of the flash unit. Only certain camera and flash combinations support this feature, and the camera-flash pairings are almost exclusively from the same manufacturer, the first being the Olympus OM-4 with the F280 flashgun. Off-camera flash units with this feature are currently very rare.


 Rear-curtain sync
Some modern electronic cameras include the ability to fire the flash just before the closing of the shutter, so that moving object will show a streak where they came from and a sharp image where they were at the end of the exposure. This mode is called either rear-curtain sync or 2nd-curtain sync.


 History
The first camera to implement a flash synchronizer was the Exakta, in 1935.

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Ed Shapiro
The Hintonburg Studio
Suite 201  78 Hinton Avenue North
Ottawa, Ontario CANADA  K1Y 0Z8
613-792-4837    Email:  edshapiro@rogers.com