Schwarzschild effect

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This topic comes from another thread, but I thought a seperate topic would be more appropriate.

Who knows if there is something like a Schwarzschild effect in digital? And if so, at what time -at the long end- will it be noticable and how?

Leen
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From looking at the colour (Hey, Stew, I can spell!  Wink) histograms I would have to conclude that yes, something like that would occur.  As one channel or another gets to a higher value at a set exposure, it seems to me that a longer exposure would exaggerate the ratios.

The light collectors -pixels- can only collect so many photons before maxing out so either you create a colour (lol) cast or you blow out a colour channel.

Testing would be nice but I have to go.

mike
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The smart person learns from their own mistakes.
The Wise person learns from the mistakes of others!

On the Contrare, No, there is no digital, as per googling.

Mike
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Actually there is.  Using the slowest lens you have, take the same shot at ISO 100 with the smallest aperture and then at ISO 3200 with the largest aperture and then look at the histograms in Photoshop.

It's not really as I described but the highest ISO (most sensitive) blows out (noise) thereby lightening the photo over all and just barely qualifying as 'something' like that.  LOL

Thanks Leen, I had wondered about this just on Monday and was too lazy to get off my duff and test.  I didn't drag out an ND (polarizer in my case) but one extreme was ISO 3200 f3.5 @1/60 to another ISO 100 f4.5 @15 seconds.  Both at 3200K WB.

All in all I see no reason to adjust for a slower shutter unless you just want motion blur in your photo.  Smiley

mike
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The smart person learns from their own mistakes.
The Wise person learns from the mistakes of others!

...and was too lazy to get off my duff and test.

I always thought it was "butt"  Grin

With me the same thing. Why taking the trouble whie you can wait for others to solve a riddle for you?  Cheesy

I know that a long time exposure degrades the image, that 's why the camera sometimes takes another black image, but I didnot in what other way it influences it.

Leen
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Hi Leen! 

I had to hit my head against the wall a few times to get my brain in gear- I think I damaged the wall but I now recall the work of Karl Schwazchild, the German physicist and astronomer who died shortly before the end of WWI.

His work in photography was mostly in the astronomical field where he did research into the optical density of photographic emulsions.  If I am not mistaken, the scientific/mathematical formula was know as the Schwazchild exponent.  It's been a long-long time since college days but I recall this had mostly to do with what we now refer to as reciprocity law failure in practical down-to-earth photography.  I would imagine in Schwazchild day, with low speed materials and the earlier design of telescopic optics, some very lengthy exposures were need to obtain photographic images of distant stars.  I think he was trying to establish the distance of certain stars my measuring their relative intensity on the photographic emulsions and the occurrence of reciprocity failure could have hampered theses attempts.  I would guess his equation; i=f ( I.t(p) was a means of factoring in the failure.

In some of the older films this was an important factor to consider because many of the popular emulsions in bot color and black and white suffered from this kind of deficiency in both black and white and color.  Many films manufactures recommended extended development times when exposing their black and white films with electronic flash because of the relatively short flash durations.  Some of the early electronic flash units operated on extremely high voltage and comparatively low capacitance- this yielded flash durations of one one hundredth thousandth of a second.  There were even specialized developers made for this specialized usage.  Of. course there were many films that required longer than normal exposures to correct for long exposures where reciprocity failure would set in as low as 10 seconds.  Reciprocity charts were issued in the instructions supplied with theses films.  Enter color photography- now there were multi layered emulsions.  During long exposures, not all of the layers would receive enough light at the same time and those dread color-crossovers would begin to occur.  This was remedied by longer exposures and the addition of filters to help with correction the color response, or lack there of, in the various layers of the emulsion- HAPPY DAYS!

Still being a film user for a great deal of my work, I have found that the latest emulsions have a grater tolerance for longer exposures and there is very little or no reciprocity indications on many of the black and white, color negative and transparency materials I still use.

There are so many theories that are common to both film and digital photography but this one has me without any direct correlation or down pat answer.  Since a lot of the old theory is based on chemical reactions of the development process, I would guess that theses do not directly apply to the electronics involved in digital imaging.  Noise is so often compared to grain in cases of underexposure but again, I don't know if there is a direct correlation between the two.  In film, sever lack of shadow detail will not only reveal grain but prevent a really good level of D-Max on the final print and will result in muddy color issues as well.  In digital work the same kind of thing seems to occur but to my knowledge, this is caused by the electronic system in the camera "straining" to produce an image at graiter ISO settings when the light is below it's normal working level. 

In videography, noise was a sever problem when the cameras used image-orthocon tubes and the related circuitry.  Once sold-state devices took over- that is no longer a serious issue and the new digital video camera can work well even in extreme low light conditions.  If the same technology applies to the latest digital cameras, I can not see a reciprocity-like problem occurring unless one is operating totally below the capabilities of the camera. 

If there is any correlation between film and digital photography it might be a good Idea to realize that most high speed films work better in terms of graininess, D-Max, resolution and contrast when they are exposed at about 1/2 their published ISO rating.  The Kodak Portra 800 is an exception to this rule, it is a true ISO 800.

Another interesting tip-  I sometimes use reciprocity law failure to my advantage- another reason why I like film for certain assignments.  I am often asked to photograph industrial or retail interiors which are lighted bu sodium-vapor and other lights which are lacking in the red portion of the visible spectrum.  I use a daylight type color negative film such as Portra 400 and adjust the aperture at a very small f/stop which allows for a very long exposure.  Theses films, when exposed for a couple of minutes develop a red bias which compensates for the lack of that color in the light sources.  The resulting negative is absolutely normal and prints with ease.  I have tried this with digital equipment and although the camera comes up with a white balance, it does not look as good as the film method.  This might be some indication that the electronic sensor and it's circuitry are not subject to traditional theories pertaining to the reciprocity laws.

The next thing I will do is try to contact the technical folks at Nikon, Cannon and or Fugi and ask about obtaining information as to the nature of their systems as to longer than normal exposures and if there is a cut off point where the camera can not interpret long exposures beyond a particular range.

Interesting topic, to say the least!   Regards, Ed Shapiro
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Ed Shapiro
The Hintonburg Studio
Suite 201  78 Hinton Avenue North
Ottawa, Ontario CANADA  K1Y 0Z8
613-792-4837    Email:  edshapiro@rogers.com

Ed, it has been very useful, hitting your head against the wall. It was a good lesson in the work of Karl Schwarzschild.

I remember, with professional film, like Portra, there was always a leaflet packed with the reciprocal effect. I think it still is, although I haven't used any professional film for over 5 years.

Leen
« Last Edit: April 12, 2007, 04:40:02 PM by Leen Koper »
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Leen,

You are right, the package insert for film always included repreprocity information.  Many films started by increasing exposure by one stop at a metered 1/2 second and two stops when the meter indicated 10 seconds or more.  These were the values that I always used when I was unsure of the requirements for a specific film.  I have never seen this is in manual for any digital camera that I have owned.

Ed,

It's interesting that you mention using extra exposure for flash with early films.  Repreprocity failure does occur with with both long and very short exposures.  I believed that Harald Edgerton had to over expose some of his work by several stops.  Of course, he was working with flash durations as short as 1/1000000 of a second!

Ed
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Ed Farmer
Mount Laurel, New Jersey

www.edfarmerphotography.com
www.photoartsforum.com

A little research . . . I called Nikon's digital support center.  The answer that I recieved, "We have never heard of it, so it must not apply to digital capture." did not inspire any confidence.  I have emailed this question to Ken Rockwell (www.kenrockwell.com).  I will post whatever response I recieve.

Ed
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Ed Farmer
Mount Laurel, New Jersey

www.edfarmerphotography.com
www.photoartsforum.com

Ken has never seen this with digital capture.  He suggested testing it on our own . . . which I had already though of, I was hoping to get a technical answer from someone.  I will try to get out and do a little test with my D200 at lunchtime.  If anyone would like to volunteer another camera (maybe a CMOS sensor?) the results might be interesting.

Ed
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Ed Farmer
Mount Laurel, New Jersey

www.edfarmerphotography.com
www.photoartsforum.com

Ed, please do.  The simple 1 minute test I did was not what I would call conclusive.  As I think about it though, my original thought was that the ratios of the channels would continue in their own separate total photons absorbed/unit time curves and the longer the exposure the greater the variance.  However, I failed to take into account the millions of dollars and thousands of man-hours from many highly talented engineers that went into designing this effect tout of existence.  The limitations of the hardware's ability to capture highlights will (to my thinking) also limit the total saturation possible in a photo.  Also, greatly increasing the exposure time will tend to defeat the filtration to some extent and I'm not about (or qualified) to whip out the quantum mechanics to describe where in the filtration the most photons will pass causing noise.  gahhh, must...stop...need...air

LOL  Anyway, have at it, I'm keen to know what you find.

mike
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The smart person learns from their own mistakes.
The Wise person learns from the mistakes of others!

Just to throw a little monkey wrench into your comments Mike:  Noise isn't caused where photons do pass through a filter, but where they don't!  Noise is caused when sensor sites that don't recieve enough photons to indicate a signal level still generate a signal due to heat, radiation and other factors.

Ed
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Ed Farmer
Mount Laurel, New Jersey

www.edfarmerphotography.com
www.photoartsforum.com

Strange, you would think that which ever pixel was activated would still only show the activation as a small one.

I guess I was mistaken but I thought that the pixels were simply photon counters to convey the brightness value in their own little spot.  And then there were filters in a grid pattern between them and the lens to allow only one color through at that coordinate so that the color levels -in rgb- next to each other could then determine a true color for a tiny spot in the photo.

Or is what am I calling noise something else?  Because what I saw was specks of white in an otherwise light photo of a wall and column like what would happen when pixel groups were filled up and reporting white.

Anyway, I look forward to finding out what you learn.  Smiley

mike
« Last Edit: April 13, 2007, 01:21:39 PM by MikeE »
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The smart person learns from their own mistakes.
The Wise person learns from the mistakes of others!

Reciprocity Law Failure
Although the reciprocity law failure effect can take place with daylight photography, the long shutter exposures of night photography definitely suffer from this. Reciprocity Law failure is the loss in the exposure sensitivity of the film. This is caused by either a prolonged exposure period (more than 1/10 sec. shutter speed) or an extremely brief period of the shutter opening (shutter speeds faster than 1/2000 sec.).

As a brief example, if a film rated at 100 ISO was exposed for 2 sec. its film speed rating could fall to 50 ISO. What this leads to is underexposure if the image was taken at the camera meters correct exposure reading. Exposure meters do not take into account reciprocity law failure. With color film the colors would also be affected giving a slight color cast to the image. It is very difficult to allow for reciprocity failure as different films and even different batches of the same film react differently under these conditions.

Digital images do not suffer from reciprocity law failure. However because of such low resolution compared with film, highlight areas will burn out much more prominently in the image.
As a very general guide use the following table.

 

Adjusting for reciprocity law failure  Film Type 1 Second 10 Seconds 100 Seconds
Monochrome + 1 stop + 2 stops + 3 stops
Color Negative + 1 stop + 2 stops + 2 ½
Color Slide + ½ stop + 1 ½ stops + 2 ½ stops

 


Hi Gang!

I extracted this from a college text that is used at a local community college. I don't know what the original source is.  It sound a bit old because of the reference to resolution but it makes sense to me in so far as the reciprocity law itself.  As I have originally surmised, electronic imaging is simply dependent of enough light reaching the sensor to generate enough photons for image forming purposes, when there is insufficient illumination the "noise" kicks in.  Ed F. has a similar theory in his post.   

I think this is similar to a radio receiver- where there is an insufficient signal to produce a clear "voice", static arises.  The is a theory of signal to noise ratio which explains that.  In television sets, the noise appears as both static in the audio and "snow" on the screen.  Theses phenomena are generated within the receiving device and on certain frequencies, this is referred to as 'birdies".

None of theses theories seem to parallel the effects of reciprocity law failure in photo/chemical processes.

Ed Shapiro

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Ed Shapiro
The Hintonburg Studio
Suite 201  78 Hinton Avenue North
Ottawa, Ontario CANADA  K1Y 0Z8
613-792-4837    Email:  edshapiro@rogers.com

Huh.... Huh?

OK, so I learned enough about reciprocity failure to realize I had to compensate for it, when I was using film.  I am not the guru you guys are, but from simply looking at my photos taken under different circumstances, I don't see any loss of sensitivity in the sensor of my digital camera.  If it does exist, I am not sure it is serious enough to be too concerned, is it?  Especially if it is this difficult to confirm whether or not there is an effect.   With film, sure; digital, maybe not?

In case you were wondering, I don't have anything worthwhile to add to this thread, I just wanted to step in and make my presence known  Grin.  This is actually mostly over my head, so I am trying to absorb what applies to my photography and learn from it.  Thanks for all the information.

Travis
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